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Jack
Ehrenmoderator
Anmeldungsdatum: 09.04.2006
Beiträge: 549
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 Verfasst am: 18. Mai 2011 23:42 Titel: |
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Well, Latin itself may be dead, but it certainly helps you learn other Romance languages like Spanish or French more easily. In fact, it can even be useful in understanding where some English and German words or grammatical rules come from. If you want to learn a language you can actually use in another country, however, French and Spanish are certainly better choices.  |
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cat
Anmeldungsdatum: 29.04.2011
Beiträge: 10
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| Verfasst am: 19. Mai 2011 15:04 Titel: |
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How you doin´? Are their some Singles? |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
Beiträge: 1140
Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 21. Mai 2011 13:12 Titel: |
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| Pablo hat Folgendes geschrieben: | Yes, I hope so!
I already speak two languages perfect and English is my third languages. In the next year I must choose a fourth language at school. I can choose French, Latin or Spanish. I think that I will choose Spanish because I don't like French and Latin is dead. What should I do with a dead laguage? |
Jack has already pointed out that Latin can be helpful. It also depends on what you want to do later on. If, for example, you wish to study something like history or philosophy, Latin will be more helpful than Spanish. If you want to just use your language skills, Spanish is of course better.
@cat:
I'm doing alright, how're you?
Please don't link flirtpages, that just doesn't belong here, thus I removed the link.
Greetings
MI |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 21. Mai 2011 22:38 Titel: |
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Hey MI,
Do you acutually learn English or are you on a point where you say '' I can English and I needn't more'' ?
Regards |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
Beiträge: 1140
Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 22. Mai 2011 22:47 Titel: |
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| Pablo hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Do you acutually learn English or are you on a point where you say '' I can speak English and I needn't more''? |
I don't have English lessons anymore (for four years now) and I don't have any grammar books I'm working through. I'm learning it mainly, when I'm here correcting stuff other people have written.
The thing with English is that in the beginning, it is really not too difficult. After a while, you think that you have the hang of it and the moment you have reached this point, you realise that English is really infinitely complex, mainly because of all the vocabulary and idioms out there.
Greetings
MI |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 23. Mai 2011 13:40 Titel: |
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Okay, I am planning my holiday for the next year and I would like to go to the USA for a language-travel again.
The USA are so big and I would like to see all sightseeings and cities but unfortunately that will not go.
Can you recommend a place or city or have you ever been to the USA?
Regards |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
Beiträge: 1140
Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 24. Mai 2011 20:44 Titel: |
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| Pablo hat Folgendes geschrieben: | The USA are so big and I would like to see all sights and cities but unfortunately that will not go.
Can you recommend a place or city or have you ever been to the USA? |
Yes I have, but only to the region around Philadelphia (including New York City and Washington D.C.), this makes it hard for me to really recommend anything, but of course, Washington and New York both are very interesting cities.
As I see it, if you want to have a lot of opportunities, on your first visit to the USA you should probably visit either the area of New York City, thereby also having the opportunity to visit Washington, Boston, or Philadelphia or you should go to California, Los Angeles and/or San Francisco. These two areas are very populated, very well known of course and they have the advantage that other well known cities are nearby. Of course, other cities and areas may be interesting also (for example Florida with Cape Canavaral, the Everglades and Miami; or the area around Chicago; etc.), but perhaps these areas offer even more?
Greetings
MI |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 26. Mai 2011 15:40 Titel: |
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Okay, I will think about it. Am I allowed to ask you what you do except maths and physics?
Regards |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
Beiträge: 1140
Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 30. Mai 2011 23:18 Titel: |
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| Pablo hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Okay, I will think about it. Am I allowed to ask you what you do except maths and physics? |
Of course you are allowed to ask, but I choose rather not to answer this question, I believe you can understand that.
I mean, some of my hobbies are very obvious - like reading, history and languages.
Greetings and have a nice evening,
MI |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 01. Jun 2011 23:40 Titel: |
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Okay. What do think is the easyer language to learn? Spain, Latin or France?
Regards |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
Beiträge: 1140
Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 02. Jun 2011 20:49 Titel: |
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| Pablo hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Okay. What do think is the easier language to learn? |
"Spain" and "France" are names of the countries - the languages are called "Spanish" and "French".
Well, it's not very easy to say, which language is easier. I learned them in the order Latin - French - (Spanish). I speak only very little Spanish, thus I cannot say anything about its hidden difficulties, but in principle, most of its grammar seems to be very similar to Latin or French and much of its vocabulary is also.
But which one is easiest? That depends on many factors. First, I'd say Spanish is easier than French for one reason:
- the grammar seems to me pretty much similar, especially because the difficult topics, such as subjunctive forms, exist in both languages.
- French' orthography is harder than Spanish' - a very large amount of French words has many unpronounced letters, which makes it difficult to write by hearing. In consequence, I consider writing flawless French to be much more difficult than writing flawless English (and I'd say also Spanish). Even when my knowledge of French was biggest (>C1 in the European reference system of assessing language skills), I made a lot more mistakes in French than somebody with the same skill level in English would be expected to make.
Now, what about Latin? Well, that mostly depends on your preferences. You see, at school, you don't learn to speak Latin. You learn to translate Latin and at a later stage of your education, you might begin translating simple German texts into Latin. This makes learning Latin a lot different to learning any spoken language. Learning Latin is much less intuition and much more learning of rules and vocabulary. The grammar of Latin is very complex and you learn much more complex grammatic structures when learning Latin than you learn when learning French or Spanish, not because those two languages don't have complex structures, but because you don't really need to know every grammatic detail there. In Latin, this is different. However, there is a very good thing about Latin, if you get easily irritated by rules and exceptions. Since Latin is no evolving language, the rules and exceptions are all very well studied. Very often you might find a rule together with a table of all existing exceptions - something which is very hard to find for English, Spanish or French.
That's why many people say that learning Latin is easy for people who are good at mathematics at school: both, mathematics at school and Latin can be done very schematic.
Greetings
MI |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 02. Jun 2011 21:28 Titel: |
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Hi,
your answer is partial so difficult to read for me but I think that I have understood it.
You know, in the next year I must choose a second language and that is the reason why I asked you.
Last week my teacher said to me that the most pupils have problems with this second language and it is better to learn in time. Because of that I will start to learn in time and I hope, in the next year it won't be difficult for me.
So, I think that French will be to difficult. Then I have to choose between Latin and Spain. Hmm, that is a hard decision. I will think about it.
You know, that I go to a school for the second education way for older people and we have to learn in 2 Years the same subject-stuff for this second language as like as a normal Gymnasium-pupil. That could be very difficult.
Or what do you think?
Regards, your pupil  |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
Beiträge: 1140
Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 09. Jun 2011 23:58 Titel: |
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| Pablo hat Folgendes geschrieben: | Hi,
your answer is partially very difficult to read for me but I think that I have understood it. |
Well, if there is anything you are not sure about, just point out the passage and I'll rephrase it with different words. Perhaps you'll pick up some useful vocabulary on the way.
| Zitat: |
You know, in the next year I must choose a second language and that is the reason why I asked you.
Last week my teacher said to me that the most pupils have problems with this second language and it is better to learn in time. Because of that I will start to learn in time and I hope, next year it won't be difficult for me.
So, I think that French will be to difficult. Then I have to choose between Latin and Spain. Hmm, that is a hard decision. I will think about it.
You know, that I go to a school for second chance education for older people and we have to learn in 2 years the same subject-stuff for this second language as normal grammar school pupils. (I had to look that up, but the term above is a better translation for "zweiter Bildungsweg"). That could be very difficult. |
Well, it all comes down to how well you learn new languages. French was my third language and that means I learned in two years, what others had to learn in four. The usual time that is required for your second language is, I believe, five. However, be assured that you don't have to learn five years in two. I mean, the people who invented these instruments for second chance education actually want you to succeed. That means, it will be feasible. Your second language at school might not be a soft subject, you might have to work a lot, but then there will be a good chance for you to pass. Since I can see that you are prepared to put in lots of work, you'll probably be fine.
Regards
MI |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 11. Jun 2011 16:23 Titel: |
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Hi,
yes, I always pick up words from your answers and learn them.
Well, the problem is that I have this second language only two years I don't have to write my abitur in it. That is the reason why I am searching for an easy one. Which is the easiest to learn?
Regards |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
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| Verfasst am: 13. Jun 2011 23:11 Titel: |
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As I said, the question is difficult. I'd say Spanish is easier than French, but it depends on your type, whether you find Spanish easier or Latin. Most would find Spanish easier, but then again, you seem to learn a little different than most people.
Greetings
MI |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 15. Jun 2011 16:02 Titel: |
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Hello,
I think I will choose Spanish. Thanks for your advice.
Regards |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 18. Jul 2011 23:18 Titel: |
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Hey MI my friend
Are you still alive? I am here in England and the weather is so terrible. The whole day it rains or it is grey... What a pity!
I stay here by my guestfamilie and every day I talk about English grammar and these things and when I asked something about the past perfect and past perfect progressive or the passiv they looked me on and they started laughing because they did not know it. They say in English it is not normal to say: I had been having... They use the simple past or past progressive and it is no problem and in Germany they taught us that we should do this in this tense and that in that tense. They looked at me very amazed when I started talking about the present perfect progressive passive.
But they say that is the right way with all these tenses but nobody talk in this way. They all talk normal English, and not English like old books.
Moreover I love the English accent and I am customizing it on my own.
But the English food is weird because they eat everything which you can grill or toast in any way. Here is one restaurant besides an other one. This is crazy.
How are your experiences with the English food and the difference between English in Germany and real English in England?
Yours, Pablo |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
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| Verfasst am: 19. Jul 2011 15:38 Titel: |
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| Pablo hat Folgendes geschrieben: |
I stay here at my guestfamilie and every day I talk about English grammar and these things and when I asked something about the past perfect and past perfect progressive or the passiv they looked at me and they started laughing because they did not know it. They say in English it is not normal to say: I had been having... They use the simple past or past progressive and it is no problem and in Germany they taught us that we should do this in this tense and that in that tense. They looked at me very amazed when I started talking about the present perfect progressive passive. |
I very much believe that. That's what I have been trying to say once in a while: If you know about present progressive, simple present, will-future/going to future, present perfect, simple past and past perfect, you'll be absolutely fine (the only other type occasionally used is past progressive). You even don't have to know about the subtleties of the differences of present perfect and simple past or going-to and will-future.
Same with passive: More than two/three words for one verb of a sentence sounds unnatural - so don't use passive there.
Perhaps this will interest you: I recently came across "The Elements of Style" by Strunk & White - a book which is apparantly held in high esteem in American academia. It's a book giving advice on how to write correctly and well. Now, I found an interesting article critizising the book: http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497
The author of the article is one of THE British capacities in English linguistics, one of the main authors of the pretty much comprehensive (and expensive) "The Camebridge Grammar of the English Language". He pans the book of Strung & White, saying that their style advice is mostly harmless and their grammar is mostly wrong. He gives several examples, for example: Strunk & White say that you shouldn't use the passive voice and also give examples, only one of which actually contains a passive construction (see for yourself, I believe you can see that there is no passive in these sentences). That means: The authors don't actually know what the passive is - so if you have slight difficulties, don't despair, even acknowledged native speakers sometimes have even bigger problems .
| Zitat: | | But they say that is the right way with all these tenses but nobody talks in this way. They all talk normal English, and not English like old books. |
Yes, it is correct, but as you say yourself, it doesn't sound natural to use stuff like "It has been being done" and spoken language, after all, is a natural thing (what, again, I've been trying to say all along ).
| Zitat: |
But the English food is weird because they eat everything which you can barbecue (more common) or toast in any way. Here is one restaurant besides an other one. This is crazy.
How are your experiences with the English food and the difference between English in Germany and real English in England? |
Where I was, food was pretty normal, not exceptionally good, but not bad either and since I rarely went to really British restaurants, I don't know about them barbecuing everything (which might also be an American invention that came across the ocean).
As for the language, I made pretty much the same experiences you did - the only difference was that I didn't much care for grammar in the first place, so I wasn't as surprised as you are, when I found out that some rules are pretty much ignored in spoken language. What I found really interesting is how some words were pronounced entirely differently than what I had been taught (e.g.: either was pronounced something like "ithe" and not "aithe", etc.), only later did I realise that this depended heavily on the local dialect.
Regards
MI |
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Jack
Ehrenmoderator
Anmeldungsdatum: 09.04.2006
Beiträge: 549
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| Verfasst am: 19. Jul 2011 16:51 Titel: |
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| MI hat Folgendes geschrieben: | Perhaps this will interest you: I recently came across "The Elements of Style" by Strunk & White - a book which is apparantly held in high esteem in American academia. It's a book giving advice on how to write correctly and well. Now, I found an interesting article critizising the book: http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497
The author of the article is one of THE British capacities in English linguistics, one of the main authors of the pretty much comprehensive (and expensive) "The Camebridge Grammar of the English Language". He pans the book of Strung & White, saying that their style advice is mostly harmless and their grammar is mostly wrong. He gives several examples, for example: Strunk & White say that you shouldn't use the passive voice and also give examples, only one of which actually contains a passive construction (see for yourself, I believe you can see that there is no passive in these sentences). That means: The authors don't actually know what the passive is - so if you have slight difficulties, don't despair, even acknowledged native speakers sometimes have even bigger problems . |
It would be interesting to read where exactly in American academia Strung & White's grammar is supposed to be widely popular, for I haven't noticed anything like that while I studied and taught English in the U.S. In fact, traditional grammar books like that are viewed as obsolete in most English departments at American universities nowadays. Therefore, modern English teachers would not necessarily circle a passive construction as long as it's rhetorically effective (if you want to read more about this so-called rhetorical grammar, I recommend "Rhetorical Grammar" by Martha Kolln, which is a great book about English grammar and effective writing). |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
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Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 19. Jul 2011 20:36 Titel: |
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I also asked myself how very popular the book actually is - it's interesting that you have never really come across it. Perhaps it is really not that popular in academia as the article says (or did I misread this?).
However there is a certain amount of evidence supporting the idea that it is "somewhat" popular (perhaps not more in academia than elsewhere), e.g.: Wikipedia-entry with rather long discussion-page, xkcd-comic with people claiming to know the book in the discussion fora (which is how I came across the title), over 300 customer reviews on amazon.com, etc.
The question remains, why that British linguist took his time to write such an article panning the book. 
Thanks for your advice on modern books about the topic. I will perhaps one day have the time to have a look at it.
Regards
MI |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 19. Jul 2011 22:11 Titel: |
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Hey MI,
your English must be sooooooo good! When I read your textes here I am sure that your English must be extrem good! I would like to talk to you in English!
Now I am two days here and I have talked the whole day English and my English Speaking has boosted from 10 to 100.
It is really fantastic to can use the English that you have learnd. I love it. Now I am starting to think in English. I hope that is a good sign, isn't it?
The English language sound so lovely and nice, better than the American English or what do you think?
Yours, Pablo |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
Beiträge: 1140
Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 20. Jul 2011 21:34 Titel: |
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| Pablo hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | your English must be sooooooo good! When I read your textes here I am sure that your English must be extremly good! |
It's certainly not bad, but there is still room for improvement, especially with idioms and certain areas of vocabulary. I also think/know that some users here (who were here more often in the past) speak even better English than I do, however, you are probably right when you say that my level of English is already quite advanced.
| Zitat: | Now I am two days here and I have talked the whole day English and my English Speaking has boosted from 10 to 100. No problem understanding you, but you should better reorganise the sentence, e.g.: "Now, I am here for two days and I have talked English the whole day and my speaking abilities are boosted..."
It is really fantastic to be able to use the English that you have learned (can is a modal verb and has no real infinitve form - use "to be able to" instead). I love it. Now I am starting to think in English. I hope that is a good sign, isn't it? |
It's definitely not a bad sign, because it shows that you familiarise yourself with the English language. It might not help you with your grammar, but it will certainly help you to improve your oral communication skills (both in speaking and listening).
| Zitat: | | The English language sounds so lovely and nice, better than the American English or what do you think? |
Yes, I do, but that is probably because I went to England before I went to the United States, but I don't really bother very much.
Regards
MI |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 21. Jul 2011 01:14 Titel: |
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Okay, I need also vocublary. I know the whole English grammar but I need more vocabulary. Everytime I say the same words! If I want so say something and I don't know the right word I change the sentence and try to explain it in this way.
But I love English, but England is not as modern as Germany, isn't it? What do you think?
And they drive on the wrong side of the street! Everytime when I want to go in a car I go to the wrong side.
Regards Pablo |
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Jack
Ehrenmoderator
Anmeldungsdatum: 09.04.2006
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| Verfasst am: 21. Jul 2011 10:55 Titel: |
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| MI hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Yes, I do, but that is probably because I went to England before I went to the United States, but I don't really bother very much. |
I think it's really a matter of taste. I prefer American English, but I also know that no variety of English is inherently better or worse than any other. Instead, they are simply based on different development over time (just like the different German dialects that are all "correct" but not equally popular). |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 09. Aug 2011 02:24 Titel: |
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Hello MI,
everything alright? I am back in Germany now and I have really improved my English after this journey.
My Imrepssions from England are:
bad Food
bad weather
dirty Houses & Streets
Did you make the same experiences?
I think my English is rather good now but I am not really content because I need more Vocabulary and I want to react faster and better. I will continue my exercises but I am sure that my English will be really good in 1-2 years.
Tomorrow I am going to start to learn Spanish but I think this is not as easy as English because I can't say anything in Spanish and I have to start from zero. Can you speak Spanish? The reason why I want to learn Spanish is that I have to choose it in school and another reason is that I met a lot of Spanish people in England and they are so friendly and lovely and I love the Spanish girls
Regards Pablo |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
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Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 10. Aug 2011 21:11 Titel: |
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| Pablo hat Folgendes geschrieben: |
My Imrepssions from England are:
bad Food
bad weather
dirty Houses & Streets
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Since I haven't really eaten much British food, I cannot comment on the first, the second is bad luck for you. I know that many people think that the weather in England is really bad, but my experiences are different. In fact, when I was in Englad for a longer time there was a big drought and it hardly rained for four months (I remember two days of snow and one day of rain during these four months, it can't have been much more). This year, I believe, the weather was very bad in England, however, it's been pretty bad here, too. During the last four weeks, there weren't two nice days in a row.
Regarding your third point I think that it depends on where you live, although I think you'll find that very many British houses are made of wood and I think that these houses look dirty much quicker than the good old stone houses we have over here. So, you've probably got a point there.
Aside from this, I hope your stay has been very nice and you enjoyed being in England.
Regards
MI |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 11. Aug 2011 12:07 Titel: |
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Hey MI,
in which city were you? Which languages can you speak beside German and English?
Yesterday I started to learn Spanish, but I gave up, because I didn't understand anything. Each word that you want to learn muste be learned with the articel and every word sound similar. It is rather difficult to learn this language without teacher.
Now I understand why the people say that English an easy language is.
What do you think about that?
Regards Pablo |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 18. Sep 2011 16:01 Titel: |
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Hey Mi,
what's up? How is your study going? What are you doing?
Regards |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
Beiträge: 1140
Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 19. Sep 2011 18:43 Titel: |
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I'm extremely busy at the moment, so I'll only be looking into here once in a while, but that'll improve in October, when the new semester starts.
| Pablo hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Which languages can you speak beside German and English? |
I think I already wrote that I can speak English and French, translate Latin and speak a little Spanish and Russian .
| Zitat: | | Yesterday I started to learn Spanish, but I gave up, because I didn't understand anything. Each word that you want to learn muste be learned with the articel and every word sound similar. It is rather difficult to learn this language without teacher. |
Well that's how it is in the beginning - but you'll get used to it. The article problem remains, but remember: There are also people who have learned flawless German (with three different articles), so everything is possible. Of course, the very reduced grammar of the English language compared to other Germanic and Romanic languages (reduced in conjugation, declination, gender - of course that means that other grammatic aspects have to be more complex) makes it easier to learn. But if you want to truly master the language in all its aspects, even English isn't as easy as you might think .
Regards
MI |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 20. Sep 2011 13:29 Titel: |
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Hey MI,
Do you have your exam in the next time? What do you do after the university? And how did you learn Englisch so well???
And what was your Abi-Schnitt, when I am allowed to ask that?
Regards |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
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Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 09. Okt 2011 13:34 Titel: |
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| Pablo hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Do you have your exam in the next time? What do you do after the university? And how did you learn Englisch so well??? |
Yes and no. I changed university for my master's degree and thus had very little time for a while. It'll get better once the semester starts and I have internet once again.
As I told you, I learned my English in school and during my four months stay in England. After that, it was more or less reading books that improved my English.
Regards
MI |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 10. Okt 2011 07:33 Titel: |
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Hey MI my friend,
you are studying Physics, right? Could I ask you on which university you study? I read you live in Munich, are you at the LMU? I ask that because I think I will also go to this university, after my Abitur.
Regards |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
Beiträge: 1140
Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 11. Okt 2011 13:23 Titel: |
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I'm studying more or less physics (with a lot of mathematics) at LMU, but in cooperation with the TU, yes. However, since I only just started there - in case you ask - I cannot give you any information about, whether I like it there, yet .
So I hope, your studies towards the Abitur are going well?
Regards
MI |
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Pablo
Anmeldungsdatum: 23.11.2010
Beiträge: 192
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| Verfasst am: 11. Okt 2011 18:15 Titel: |
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Okay, I understand. Could you tell me which part of Physics you study? You know, Teilchen/Atom...
Do you like it? I think to study the subject Physics is the most interesting that you can do. I mean, what is more interesting than the question '' Why the world so is, how it is''?
I would choose the same subject, but I regret that my mathematical skills are not good enough to do that and If I would do that, Im sure that I would get problems with the exercises.
Or what do you think? Does anybody have to be a mathematical genius, who wants study Physics?
Pablo |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
Beiträge: 1140
Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 13. Okt 2011 00:37 Titel: |
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| Zitat: |
I would choose the same subject, but I regret that my mathematical skills are not good enough to do that and If I would do that, Im sure that I would get problems with the exercises.
Or what do you think? Does anybody have to be a mathematical genius, who wants study Physics? |
You don't have to be a mathematical genius to study physics, however mathematics surely is a very important aspect and frankly, because the theories heavily rely on all kinds of mathematics and you also have to take theoretical physics for a Bachelor's degree, most people who abandon their studies do so because they can't cope with the maths.
But how much mathematics you need after your first years of study is in some part up to you. Experimental physicists for example need a lot of statistics, but they are rarely skilled in really complex mathematical topics. You see - as an experimental physicist, you are not really interested in the mathematical structure, you want to really "see" nature working and you want to "see" the underlying principles, thus you rather construct the formula from your experiments. However, sometimes you do need more mathematical tools, but most of the times you'd just read enough to do the calculations.
Contrary to this, a theoretical physicist thinks that he can gain deeper knowledge by looking at underlying mathematical principles and structures. One of the most beautiful theoretical results, the so called "Noether's theorem", which connects conservation laws and symmetries, is a mathematical result. But sadly, the mathematics needed in theoretical physics is not simple - in fact it touches nearly every part of mathematics and sometimes requires deepest knowledge. So again, the amount of mathematics you need depends on what you search. If you search to predict results by deriving formulae and calculate their consequences, you will need less mathematics than if you search for the mathematical structures hidden inside the mathematical model of the physical reality itself (which incidentally is what I love to do).
As you pointed out, physicists generally seek enlightenment, which means that it really comes down to this: How much mathematics are you prepared to take for granted, what is enlightenment for you? Are you more the experimental type of person, who is happy to see the effects and just uses the mathematics to predict them or do you wish to "proof" a physical theory by setting up axioms and deriving their consequences, as you do with a mathematical system? The former requires far less knowledge of mathematics than the latter - but in both cases you need more than most of mankind.
In my opinion, you could compare it a little bit to learning a language: If you want to read and understand Ulysses or similar books you need a far higher level of sophistication than if you are just interested in doing small talk - but there are aspects of the language you need for small talk that you probably won't come across very often in classical literature.
Greetings
MI |
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Eris
Anmeldungsdatum: 25.08.2011
Beiträge: 73
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| Verfasst am: 13. Okt 2011 21:46 Titel: |
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This is so impressing for me, to meet a studying physicist. I'd very much like to join this discussion, if this is alright for you two. |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
Beiträge: 1140
Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 13. Okt 2011 23:58 Titel: |
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Of course! Welcome to our discussion - and if you want to meet more students of physics (especially experimental physics, since I am more of a mathematical physicist), you'll find them on our PhysikerBoard .
Regards
MI |
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Eris
Anmeldungsdatum: 25.08.2011
Beiträge: 73
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| Verfasst am: 14. Okt 2011 01:07 Titel: |
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Sure, that this is nice, to discuss a subject in English. For example I wanted to know more about ethics and if this is an issue with physics. With maths of course one like me couldn't ask, but I really wouldn't know, if there is moral in physics.
There is a physikerboard, too? That is totally new to me! But unfortunately, I'm a psychologist. I don't do physics. Like I said, I'm only interested in the moral. Are there any moral problems at all? |
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MI
Administrator
Anmeldungsdatum: 22.01.2005
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Wohnort: München
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| Verfasst am: 14. Okt 2011 14:29 Titel: |
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| Eris hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Sure, that this is nice, to discuss a subject in English. For example I wanted to know more about ethics and if this is an issue with physics. With maths of course one like me couldn't ask, but I really wouldn't know, if there is moral in physics. |
Could you elaborate, please? I don't really see a connection between empirical and theoretical sciences and the human concept of morality.
Ethics isn't really a very big subject - at least not at first. Physics itself is just clean science, which doesn't give any directions as to how to interpret the result. It doesn't really tell you why things happen, it just tells you how they happen. This is also the way physics is taught: You get to know the different concepts and theories that have been developed and of course you learn how to set up and evaluate experiments.
Up to now there are no ethical problems, etc. involved - also because there is no real need for it. You don't need to experiment on animals or other living beings and most physics doesn't endanger anyone (especially theoretical physics, of course). The only aspect that needs ethical consideration is the money needed, which basically is a problem of almost everything but engineering and teaching.
Philosophy and other things only get involved when you think about the philosophical consequences of the theories. How do you interpret quantum mechanics and its consequences on the concept of "reality"? How does "free will" emerge from physics (it doesn't - at least not in current theories) and what consequences can you draw? Except for the last question, these aren't really ethical concepts.
| Zitat: | | There is a physikerboard, too? That is totally new to me! |
Yes, if you take http://www.englischboard.de/ and scroll down, you get links to all the different subjects available.
Regards
MI |
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Eris
Anmeldungsdatum: 25.08.2011
Beiträge: 73
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| Verfasst am: 15. Okt 2011 13:07 Titel: |
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Hi MI,
| MI hat Folgendes geschrieben: |
Could you elaborate, please? I don't really see a connection between empirical and theoretical sciences and the human concept of morality.
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Isn't science a human concept, too? Does it exist apart from the human perception? Or can physics not work with a theory, that includes this hypothesis?
There were experiments in Geneva at the CERN that concerned some persons. They were worried that the world or maybe even the whole universe will end, if the experiment would go on. The experiment was hacked and they had to stop the experiment. Not exactly because it was hacked, but because there were so many people afraid. A huge particle accelarator was involved.
I think, some ethics would do good to be able to defend these experiments, because it isn't right to keep science from experimenting just because there is a lack of trust in it.
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Philosophy and other things only get involved when you think about the philosophical consequences of the theories. How do you interpret quantum mechanics and its consequences on the concept of "reality"? How does "free will" emerge from physics (it doesn't - at least not in current theories) and what consequences can you draw? Except for the last question, these aren't really ethical concepts. |
If there is no theory up until now, is the conclusion right, that physics has no concept of consciousness, either?
I see, there are some.
Regards,
Eris |
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